Jump to content


Photo

Dallas Texans/Kansas City Chiefs discussion topics


  • Please log in to reply
33 replies to this topic

#1 26554

26554

    Pro Bowler

  • Forum Visitors
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,163 posts

Posted 17 June 2011 - 12:28 PM

1. What are your thoughts on Abner Haynes and Fred Arbanas, two of the stars of the 1962 Texans' championship team?

2. Considering that they now have 6 players + the head coach in the HOF and that there are four others (Robinson, Taylor, Tyrer and Culp) who are talked about regularly as being HOF worthy, didn't the 1966-1973 Chiefs kind of underachieve? True, they did win a Super Bowl and played in another, but it still seems like they should've done a little more.

3. Of the four players listed above, how many do you feel belong in Canton?

4. Where would you rank Len Dawson among other HOF quaterbacks? He's not usually the first (or second) name from his era to come up in discussion, but he had excellent accuracy and was generally a strong decision maker.

5. Was Gary Barbaro headed to Canton before he decided to leave the Chiefs for the USFL?

6. Gary Green is another member of those early 80's Chiefs' secondaries who's now pretty much forgotten outside of Chiefs' circles. What do you remember about him?

7. Which is more impressive to you - Bill Kenney's 1983 season, Stephone Paige's 309-yard game against the Chargers in 1985 or Steve DeBerg's 1990 season?

8. How would you rate the job Marty Schottenheimer did as Chiefs' head coach? The Chiefs finished with a losing record only once during his 10 seasons as their coach (1998, his final season in Kansas City) but, as with his other stops in the NFL, he couldn't get the Chiefs to a Super Bowl.

9. The Chiefs had some great secondaries during the 80's and 90's, but I think that the best was the Albert Lewis/Kevin Ross/Deron Cherry/Lloyd Burruss group. In fact, they were probably one of the best defensive backfields in NFL history. Making it more impressive, none of them was a first or second round pick and Cherry wasn't drafted at all. How strong do you think the HOF cases of Cherry and Lewis are?

10. Where would you put Christian Okoye on the all-time big/power backs list?

11. Does Priest Holmes have a good short career (as a starter)/high peak HOF case?

12. Which was the biggest missed opportunity for the Chiefs? Was it 1995, 1997 or 2003?

13. From the current Chiefs team, which (if any) of their young stars would you most want on your team?

14. How would you assess the job Todd Haley has done so far as head coach of the Chiefs? Was last season's success more about Charlie Weis than him?

#2 Alworth19

Alworth19

    Rookie

  • Forum Visitors
  • Pip
  • 36 posts

Posted 17 June 2011 - 12:38 PM

2. Until my Chargers can win a Super Bowl, I can never say any team that did has underachieved.

3. Culp and Tyrer of the ones listed are HOF players in my mind. A good case could be made for Albert Lewis as well.

7. The Chargers defense in 85 was dreadfull, but 305 yards is crazy good.

#3 bachslunch

bachslunch

    Veteran

  • Forum Visitors
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 613 posts

Posted 17 June 2011 - 03:30 PM

1. What are your thoughts on Abner Haynes and Fred Arbanas, two of the stars of the 1962 Texans' championship team?

2. Considering that they now have 6 players + the head coach in the HOF and that there are four others (Robinson, Taylor, Tyrer and Culp) who are talked about regularly as being HOF worthy, didn't the 1966-1973 Chiefs kind of underachieve? True, they did win a Super Bowl and played in another, but it still seems like they should've done a little more.

3. Of the four players listed above, how many do you feel belong in Canton?

5. Was Gary Barbaro headed to Canton before he decided to leave the Chiefs for the USFL?

9. The Chiefs had some great secondaries during the 80's and 90's, but I think that the best was the Albert Lewis/Kevin Ross/Deron Cherry/Lloyd Burruss group. In fact, they were probably one of the best defensive backfields in NFL history. Making it more impressive, none of them was a first or second round pick and Cherry wasn't drafted at all. How strong do you think the HOF cases of Cherry and Lewis are?

11. Does Priest Holmes have a good short career (as a starter)/high peak HOF case?


I'm assuming there's a HoF component, stated or implied, to all these questions, so here are my thoughts:

1. I don't see strong HoF cases based on stats for either Fred Arbanas or Abner Haynes; both strike me as Hall-of-the-Very-Good types. Arbanas may be the best TE the AFL produced, but comparing his numbers to Mike Ditka, Jackie Smith, and John Mackey do not impress, and I'm hard-pressed to think he's a bigger snub than either Pete Retzlaff or Jerry Smith, both of whom played during the 60s as well. There's no question Haynes's first three years in the AFL put forth HoF level numbers as a rusher coupled with strong kick return and receiving stats -- but he fell off notably afterwards with only a couple more respectable seasons following, and his peak and career generally are just too short.

2./3. I'm all for Johnny Robinson and Jim Tyrer for HoF membership, and can see some case for Otis Taylor. Robinson and Taylor are at positions that seem to get minimal love from HoF voters, though, and Tyrer's murder/suicide is a serious hurdle even though the HoF's guidelines say to only consider on-field performance. I'm less sold on Curley Culp, as a 1(1AP)/6/none postseason profile is pretty lean for a 14 year career and does not compare favorably with other d-linemen from the era still not in (why Culp and not Fred Smerlas, for example?), plus it's not clear how much more innovative Culp's nose tackle play was than Fred Dean's elephant play (and I'm of the impression Dean's innovator status is overstated).

5. No question Gary Barbaro was starting to build a solid postseason honors profile when he left the NFL. Being a safety, though, was clearly no promise of HoF election without a much longer career and much bigger numbers.

9. Albert Lewis's 2(2AP)/4/none honors are about equal to that of Frank Minnifield at 2(1AP)/4/80s and Hanford Dixon at 2(2AP)/3/none, though Lewis does have a longer career than either -- I just don't see it for him. Deron Cherry however has a 3(3AP)/6/80s profile, which compares favorably with all the other top non-HoF safeties at this position logjam who are probably going nowhere -- and while it's really tough to differentiate him from Joey Browner, Kenny Easley, and Donnie Shell, I wouldn't gripe of any or all of them were elected.

11. Re Priest Holmes: see Abner Haynes above. His three big HoF level years and two good ones besides that just aren't enough.

#4 Rupert Patrick

Rupert Patrick

    Pro Bowler

  • PFRA Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,424 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Upstate SC

Posted 17 June 2011 - 04:18 PM

11. Re Priest Holmes: see Abner Haynes above. His three big HoF level years and two good ones besides that just aren't enough.


I use Terrell Davis as the standard for short but brilliant career RB who hasn't made the HOF. If I don't think a guy was as good as Davis, by definition he comes up short. If the Chiefs had won the Super Bowl in 2003, I think his case would be stronger, but not as strong as Davis.

#5 97Den98

97Den98

    Pro Bowler

  • Forum Visitors
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,031 posts

Posted 17 June 2011 - 05:41 PM

Quote "12. Which was the biggest missed opportunity for the Chiefs? Was it 1995, 1997 or 2003?" Quote

I would have to say that 1997 was the biggest missed opportunity out of those three years, and it isn't even close.

In my opinion, I think that their 1995 and 2003 teams were extreme flukes. Those teams should have been 8-8. In 1997, though, they had more of a balanced team than those other two teams. The 1995 team lacked offensive punch, and the 2003 team lacked defense.

I still think that the Broncos should have played Kansas City that year for the AFC Title game, not Pittsburgh. Denver and the Chiefs were the two best teams in the AFC in 1997.

What hurt the Chiefs that year and moving forward was going with Elvis Grbac over Rich Gannon. They should have stuck with Gannon for the 1997 playoffs and the 1998 season and let Grbac go. They had great expectations going into the 98 season, but they crashed and burned. As a result, Schottenheimer left, and Gannon went on to lead the Raiders to three straight West Titles and a SB appearance.

#6 Rupert Patrick

Rupert Patrick

    Pro Bowler

  • PFRA Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,424 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Upstate SC

Posted 17 June 2011 - 06:35 PM

Quote "12. Which was the biggest missed opportunity for the Chiefs? Was it 1995, 1997 or 2003?" Quote

I would have to say that 1997 was the biggest missed opportunity out of those three years, and it isn't even close.

In my opinion, I think that their 1995 and 2003 teams were extreme flukes. Those teams should have been 8-8. In 1997, though, they had more of a balanced team than those other two teams. The 1995 team lacked offensive punch, and the 2003 team lacked defense.

I still think that the Broncos should have played Kansas City that year for the AFC Title game, not Pittsburgh. Denver and the Chiefs were the two best teams in the AFC in 1997.

What hurt the Chiefs that year and moving forward was going with Elvis Grbac over Rich Gannon. They should have stuck with Gannon for the 1997 playoffs and the 1998 season and let Grbac go. They had great expectations going into the 98 season, but they crashed and burned. As a result, Schottenheimer left, and Gannon went on to lead the Raiders to three straight West Titles and a SB appearance.


I agree about 1997 being the Chiefs best chance in the Schottenheimer era. I know others will disagree, but I think KC and Denver were the two best teams in the entire NFL in 1997, and because of the playoff seeding met in the Divisional game and not the AFC Championship. I figured whomever won the Divisional Playoff game would win the Super Bowl. A similar situation was in 2000, when I thought Tennessee and Baltimore were the two best teams in the league, and whoever won the Divisional Playoff would go all the way.

One note about 1995, and that is if (and I know about ifs and buts) Montana had stuck around for another year in KC they probably would have won the Super Bowl. The Cowboys of 1995 were not as dominant as they were in 1992 and 1993, the Steelers had them on the ropes before O'Donnell threw that late interception, and I think the Chiefs with Montana would have won that game.

#7 26554

26554

    Pro Bowler

  • Forum Visitors
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,163 posts

Posted 17 June 2011 - 07:26 PM

I agree that '97 was the biggest missed opportunity. Elway does it to Schottenheimer again. The '95 team had a strong defense, but a so-so offense and Steve Bono was lousy in that playoff loss to the Colts. The 2003 team had a great offense and Dante Hall returning kicks, but also had a not-so great defense. Vermeil was never really able to get that fixed during his time in Kansas City. Even though they finished the regular season 8-0 at home, I wasn't real surprised that they ended up losing a shootout with the Colts in the divisional round.

#8 conace21

conace21

    Pro Bowler

  • Forum Visitors
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,275 posts

Posted 17 June 2011 - 10:56 PM

I agree that '97 was the biggest missed opportunity. Elway does it to Schottenheimer again. The '95 team had a strong defense, but a so-so offense and Steve Bono was lousy in that playoff loss to the Colts. The 2003 team had a great offense and Dante Hall returning kicks, but also had a not-so great defense. Vermeil was never really able to get that fixed during his time in Kansas City. Even though they finished the regular season 8-0 at home, I wasn't real surprised that they ended up losing a shootout with the Colts in the divisional round.

I agree that 1997 was KCs biggest blown opportunity. I don't agree that the winner of that game was the Super Bowl favorite; Green Bay was the defending champion, and they were just rolling. I think they would have been the favorite even if KC had advanced to the Super Bowl. They were favored by 7 over Denver. I also disagree that it was a mistake to go with Grbac over Gannon. In hindsight of course, it was a huge mistake. But at the time, Rich Gannon was a past-his-prime journeyman. Elvis Grbac was the younger prized free agent signing. Grbac was the future of the franchise and he had performed very well before he was injured. Gannon had enjoyed a career season as well, but I equate it to Shula going with Griese instead of an aging Morrall for the Super Bowl. There was no way to predict that Gannon would enjoy the kind of success he did for the Raiders and Jon Gruden.
Speaking of 1997, I think I listed the missed opportunities in the 97 playoff game in an older thread, but I may as well repeat it.

-Stoyanovich hit a 34 yard Fg early but Greg Manusky was called for holding. Stoyo missed the ensuing 44 harder, just his second miss all season.
-At the start of the 2nd half, Grbac threw a TD pass to a young Tony Gonzalez but he was ruled out of bounds. It seemed clear that a Den DB had pulled him out of bounds, and he would have come down in bounds otherwise, but KC has to settle.for a FG.
-Later in the 2nd half, KC tried running Louie Aguiar on a fake FG. Not even close.
-And the final drive, 3 completions gained 9 yards. None of the receivers got out of bounds. Ted Popson could have on 3rd.down but he tried for more yards and came up a yard short. I remember thinking that on 4th and 1 that KC had plenty of time, but they took so long to run the play that Grbac had to throw for the end zone with 12 seconds left and it was broken up.

#9 26554

26554

    Pro Bowler

  • Forum Visitors
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,163 posts

Posted 17 June 2011 - 11:38 PM

I'm assuming there's a HoF component, stated or implied, to all these questions,


Not so much on Haynes and Arbanas, but on the others, yes.

#10 26554

26554

    Pro Bowler

  • Forum Visitors
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,163 posts

Posted 19 June 2011 - 12:07 AM

Any thoughts on Nick Lowery? Seems like if they ever start putting placekickers in again, he'd be behind Andersen and Anderson and probably Vinatieri, too. He does have some strong points, however.

#11 Rupert Patrick

Rupert Patrick

    Pro Bowler

  • PFRA Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,424 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Upstate SC

Posted 19 June 2011 - 02:26 AM

Any thoughts on Nick Lowery? Seems like if they ever start putting placekickers in again, he'd be behind Andersen and Anderson and probably Vinatieri, too. He does have some strong points, however.


Nick Lowery makes the preliminary list every year. Lowery will probably not make the HOF, but my research indicates he is probably one of the three greatest Kickers of all time and certainly in the top five. One thing Lowery does not have in his favor is the lack of a signature play.

Gary Anderson and Morten Andersen will both make the HOF, and Vinatieri is also a shoo-in (pardon the pun) although I think he is pretty much an average kicker who has had a long career and is getting in on the basis of two field goals. While playing most of his career with prolific offenses in New England and Indy, he has led the league in scoring once, in 2004. In 2010 he was third in scoring, and his next best finish was sixth. He was twice an All Pro, which is a low number for a HOF candidate. He is the only Kicker with four Super Bowl rings, which is a point in his favor, and he has two signature plays. In my opinion Vinatieri is arguably the most overrated player of this era.

#12 Ben

Ben

    Starter

  • PFRA Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 493 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 19 June 2011 - 07:24 AM

Nick Lowery makes the preliminary list every year. Lowery will probably not make the HOF, but my research indicates he is probably one of the three greatest Kickers of all time and certainly in the top five. One thing Lowery does not have in his favor is the lack of a signature play.

Gary Anderson and Morten Andersen will both make the HOF, and Vinatieri is also a shoo-in (pardon the pun) although I think he is pretty much an average kicker who has had a long career and is getting in on the basis of two field goals. While playing most of his career with prolific offenses in New England and Indy, he has led the league in scoring once, in 2004. In 2010 he was third in scoring, and his next best finish was sixth. He was twice an All Pro, which is a low number for a HOF candidate. He is the only Kicker with four Super Bowl rings, which is a point in his favor, and he has two signature plays. In my opinion Vinatieri is arguably the most overrated player of this era.

I agree that Vinatieri is overrated, no player has ever been considered a HOFer on just 3 plays, nor has it ever been so open that writers are ignoring almost everything else about him, it's actually kind of disrespectful to kickers. Kickers should be judged on accuracy re weather,distance, and yes pressure situations, but on his whole career. As far as scoring goes, no kicker has led the league more than once since John Smith in 1980, and kickers on prolific offenses don't score as much as you might expect, because they miss out on FGs, so that doesn't bother me as much.

#13 Rupert Patrick

Rupert Patrick

    Pro Bowler

  • PFRA Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,424 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Upstate SC

Posted 19 June 2011 - 09:31 AM

As far as scoring goes, no kicker has led the league more than once since John Smith in 1980, and kickers on prolific offenses don't score as much as you might expect, because they miss out on FGs, so that doesn't bother me as much.


I didn't believe that statement that no Kicker has led the league in scoring more than once since John Smith, and looked it up and you are correct. Eddie Murray in 1981 was the last player (Kicker or otherwise) to lead the league in scoring (in his case he tied with Rafael Septien) but his team did not make the playoffs. Of the NFL scoring leaders since 1982, six played on a SB winning team, four played on the SB losing team, five played on a team who lost the Conference Championship, so half of the time over the last 30 years, if you lead the league in scoring your team is going at least as far as the Conference Championship.

#14 26554

26554

    Pro Bowler

  • Forum Visitors
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,163 posts

Posted 19 June 2011 - 09:52 PM

I didn't believe that statement that no Kicker has led the league in scoring more than once since John Smith, and looked it up and you are correct. Eddie Murray in 1981 was the last player (Kicker or otherwise) to lead the league in scoring (in his case he tied with Rafael Septien) but his team did not make the playoffs. Of the NFL scoring leaders since 1982, six played on a SB winning team, four played on the SB losing team, five played on a team who lost the Conference Championship, so half of the time over the last 30 years, if you lead the league in scoring your team is going at least as far as the Conference Championship.


Surprisingly, though they played a combined 48 seasons in the NFL, Morten Andersen and Gary Anderson had only one scoring title between the two of them. That was 1998, when Gary lead the league with a total of 164. Unfortunately for him, the one kick he didn't make that season is the one that people most remember. Morten finished 2nd in scoring twice, in 1987 and in 1992.

I'm not really pushing for the voters to start putting a bunch of kickers into the HOF, but it does seem strange that Jan Stenerud is the only one. I mean, Stenerud was great, but I don't know that it's inarguable that he's THE best placekicker in NFL history.

While I'm on the subject of Chiefs kickers, how about Jerrel Wilson, yet another player from the Stram teams? Seems like his case is about as strong as Ray Guy's.

#15 bachslunch

bachslunch

    Veteran

  • Forum Visitors
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 613 posts

Posted 20 June 2011 - 08:08 AM

Surprisingly, though they played a combined 48 seasons in the NFL, Morten Andersen and Gary Anderson had only one scoring title between the two of them. That was 1998, when Gary lead the league with a total of 164. Unfortunately for him, the one kick he didn't make that season is the one that people most remember. Morten finished 2nd in scoring twice, in 1987 and in 1992.

I'm not really pushing for the voters to start putting a bunch of kickers into the HOF, but it does seem strange that Jan Stenerud is the only one. I mean, Stenerud was great, but I don't know that it's inarguable that he's THE best placekicker in NFL history.

While I'm on the subject of Chiefs kickers, how about Jerrel Wilson, yet another player from the Stram teams? Seems like his case is about as strong as Ray Guy's.


I think Jan Stenerud definitely belongs in the HoF, and what will likely be the real problem here is that guys like Nick Lowery and Gary Anderson may likely not get their due.

But I do think Stenerud is one of the elite kickers in NFL history, combining a long career with excellent accuracy for his time. He was one of the career leaders in FG percentage when he retired, and my understanding is that Rupert Patrick's PK study shows Stenerud as one of the five most accurate such players adjusted for era. Plus he led the league in FG percentage four times, and only Lou Groze did so more times (five).

#16 bachslunch

bachslunch

    Veteran

  • Forum Visitors
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 613 posts

Posted 20 June 2011 - 08:57 AM

While I'm on the subject of Chiefs kickers, how about Jerrel Wilson, yet another player from the Stram teams? Seems like his case is about as strong as Ray Guy's.


Good point, and one can make the same point about Tommy Davis, Horace Gillom, Don Chandler, Reggie Roby, Rich Camarillo, and Rohn Stark.

#17 26554

26554

    Pro Bowler

  • Forum Visitors
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,163 posts

Posted 20 June 2011 - 01:46 PM

Quick story I read about Fred Arbanas. As some of you probably know, Arbanas was mugged/assaulted in December of 1964 and suffered severe damage to his left eye. He took to wearing a glass eye the following season. During one game, he was hit so hard that the glass eye popped out of its' socket and rolled around on the field. Arbanas chased it down, picked it up, rinsed it off in a bucket of water, popped in back in place and ran back on the field.

Referee Tommy Bell witnessed all this and asked, "What would you do if your other eye was like that, too?"

Arbanas replied, "I imagine I'd have to retire and become a referee."

I don't know if that story's true or not, but it's a classic.

Having a glass eye didn't effect Arbanas' level of play too much. He was All-AFL in both 1966 and 1967.

#18 26554

26554

    Pro Bowler

  • Forum Visitors
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,163 posts

Posted 20 June 2011 - 02:07 PM

9. Albert Lewis's 2(2AP)/4/none honors are about equal to that of Frank Minnifield at 2(1AP)/4/80s and Hanford Dixon at 2(2AP)/3/none, though Lewis does have a longer career than either -- I just don't see it for him. Deron Cherry however has a 3(3AP)/6/80s profile, which compares favorably with all the other top non-HoF safeties at this position logjam who are probably going nowhere -- and while it's really tough to differentiate him from Joey Browner, Kenny Easley, and Donnie Shell, I wouldn't gripe of any or all of them were elected.


Fwiw, Jerry Rice once said that Lewis was the toughest db that he faced in the NFL.

No disrespect to Darrell Green, who I think belongs in the HOF, but I think that Lewis was at least as good as him. Yet, I don't believe that Lewis has even made it past the preliminary stage of the voting process. It'd be easy to say that it all comes down to Green being on three Super Bowl teams (2 winners) and Lewis not being on any, but there's also the fact that his longtime teammate, Cherry, has a strong case, too. Maybe they're canceling each other out. I still have a feeling that at least one of them will make it in someday, even if they have to go the Seniors route.

Here's a nice SI artice by Dr. Z from the heyday of Lewis, Ross, Cherry and Burruss -

http://cnnsi.printth...66433/index.htm

#19 Rupert Patrick

Rupert Patrick

    Pro Bowler

  • PFRA Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,424 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Upstate SC

Posted 20 June 2011 - 05:42 PM

I think Jan Stenerud definitely belongs in the HoF, and what will likely be the real problem here is that guys like Nick Lowery and Gary Anderson may likely not get their due.

But I do think Stenerud is one of the elite kickers in NFL history, combining a long career with excellent accuracy for his time. He was one of the career leaders in FG percentage when he retired, and my understanding is that Rupert Patrick's PK study shows Stenerud as one of the five most accurate such players adjusted for era. Plus he led the league in FG percentage four times, and only Lou Groze did so more times (five).


I think once the data for Groza comes in, I will probably conclude that Stenerud is the greatest Kicker of all time. His peak between 1967 and 1970 was the greatest peak any Kicker has ever had, and it could be argued he was the most valuable player in Pro Football during that era. How good was he? His PAL2 score between 1967 and 1970 averaged over 20 points a season, meaning he gained 20 points more than an average Kicker would have kicking FG's from the same distances. Since 1971, the only Kickers to get a PAL score over 20 for one season were Mark Moseley in 1979, Fred Steinfort in 1980, Raul Allegre in 1983, Morton Andersen in 1985 and Neil Rackers in 2005. Stenerud averaged over 20 during a four year span, and this was during the 14-game era when the other Kickers had 16 games to accumulate their score. Lou Groza was a great Kicker, but I don't think he was that good for that long.

I would rate the top five Kickers in Pro Football history (in order) Stenerud, Groza, Lowery, Morten Andersen and Gary Anderson.

#20 26554

26554

    Pro Bowler

  • Forum Visitors
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,163 posts

Posted 20 June 2011 - 10:07 PM

Nick Lowery makes the preliminary list every year. Lowery will probably not make the HOF, but my research indicates he is probably one of the three greatest Kickers of all time and certainly in the top five. One thing Lowery does not have in his favor is the lack of a signature play.

Gary Anderson and Morten Andersen will both make the HOF, and Vinatieri is also a shoo-in (pardon the pun) although I think he is pretty much an average kicker who has had a long career and is getting in on the basis of two field goals. While playing most of his career with prolific offenses in New England and Indy, he has led the league in scoring once, in 2004. In 2010 he was third in scoring, and his next best finish was sixth. He was twice an All Pro, which is a low number for a HOF candidate. He is the only Kicker with four Super Bowl rings, which is a point in his favor, and he has two signature plays. In my opinion Vinatieri is arguably the most overrated player of this era.


I'm not so sure that either Anderson and Andersen will be enshrined in Canton. I think Vinatieri may end up jumping both of them primarily because, fair or not, he has at least three game-winning kicks that everyone knows. And he accounted for all of the Colts points in their 2006 divisional playoff win over the Ravens. Unfortunately, in the case of Anderson, the kick by him that everyone remembers is one that he missed. That's a shame, because I remember that there were at least two big postseason kicks that he did make (the 50-yarder in OT against the Oilers in the '89 AFC wild card game and the 46-yarder against the Ravens in the '03 AFC wild card game). Vinatieri will also likely finish his career in the top 10 (and perhaps the top 5) in almost all of the major kicking categories, including points scored, which will lessen the advantage that Anderson and Andersen have over him there.