26 replies to this topic

[Jay Z]

I was lamenting the seeming lack of really good books about the Los Angeles Rams, and thinking a bit about who has "custody" of the history of pro sports franchises, when there is a franchise shift. Usually if a team has been successful, and then moves, it's the city where the winning happened that is associated. Johnny Unitas is associated with the BALTIMORE Colts even though the franchise is no longer there, and the Cleveland Browns negoitated to offically keep their history while the players and owner went to Baltimore. Same in baseball with teams like the Brooklyn Dodgers and Milwaukee Braves, or Minneapolis Lakers in basketball. The franchise will probably still honor the old players, but most of us think of the original city.

When a team hasn't been so successful, it gets a little trickier. I believe the St. Louis Rams try to honor both members of the LA Rams and St. Louis Cardinals. Now both of those teams had their share of stars, and the LA Rams had good teams for quite a while, but the St. Louis Cardinals never won, and the LA Rams only won once in 49 years. Even the Chicago Cardinals won once.

Of course, Los Angeles has had a Super Bowl winner, which the Rams did not do. It was the LA Raiders. I guess my question is that there are/were old Baltimore Colt fans that remember the great days, and Brooklyn Dodger and Milwaukee Brave fans in baseball, but is there a fanbase specifically for that particular team? A lot of the Oakland fans must have ditched the team because of the move, and LA already had a team, the Rams. Yes the Rams had moved to Anaheim (50 miles away), but it's only 8 games a year, I'm sure people were capabale of commuting. This was the LA area, after all. Yes fans went to the Raiders games. But the team only stayed in LA 13 years. Other than the early AFL, and the Boston Yanks/Dallas Texan vagabonds, this is the shortest tenure of any team in any city since the 1920s. Even the Brooklyn Dodgers/Tigers were around for 15 years.

I have seen or read books on the Brooklyn Dodgers, Milwaukee Braves, the Baltimore Colts. I have even seen books on the Chicago Cardinals, Brooklyn football Dodgers, and Kansas City Athletics. The question is: is there really a fanbase that remembers the "good old days" when the LOS ANGELES Raiders won it all in 1983? Will someone write a book someday about the great LA Raiders teams? Or is Raiders history so caught up in the Al Davis personality cult that no one remembers the team was in a different city for 13 years?

[Bryan]

I think the Rams still being in the LA area is a big factor. The Rams were still the #1 team in LA. I don't remember there being much clamor by LA people wanting the Raiders to move to LA...it was more of Al Davis just wanted to get out of Oakland. I don't think the LA fan base ever really adopted the Raiders, so your "orphan" statement is probably correct. I seem to remember seeing Raider games on TV, and the stadium was always half-empty, made worse by the Olympic track encircling the field.

[coach tj troup]

I think the Rams still being in the LA area is a big factor. The Rams were still the #1 team in LA. I don't remember there being much clamor by LA people wanting the Raiders to move to LA...it was more of Al Davis just wanted to get out of Oakland. I don't think the LA fan base ever really adopted the Raiders, so your "orphan" statement is probably correct. I seem to remember seeing Raider games on TV, and the stadium was always half-empty, made worse by the Olympic track encircling the field.

..was in attendance for the afc divisional round on jan.1st,'84 vs.the black & gold...a few other folks attended the game with me.....check the attendance figures.

[Bryan]

..was in attendance for the afc divisional round on jan.1st,'84 vs.the black & gold...a few other folks attended the game with me.....check the attendance figures.

I don't doubt your memory. Maybe I am confusing the LA Raiders with the LA Express.

[Mark L. Ford]

I seem to remember seeing Raider games on TV, and the stadium was always half-empty, made worse by the Olympic track encircling the field.

..was in attendance for the afc divisional round on jan.1st,'84 vs.the black & gold...a few other folks attended the game with me.....check the attendance figures.

The L.A. Coliseum seated more than 90,000 people, so even a crowd of 70K left a lot of empty seats. The playoff game Troup refers to hosted 90,380 but even in that championship season, the Raiders had four home games with less than 45,000 attending-- including a game against the Cardinals with 32,000. Seeing the Coliseum half-empty for Raiders fans wasn't that unusual during their years there.

[ronfitch]

I don't doubt your memory. Maybe I am confusing the LA Raiders with the LA Express.

Can't see the L.A. Express mentioned without thinking of the story Steve Young told on the ESPN 30 for 30 documentary, "Who Killed the USFL." Young was struggling in a game, his mother in the stands near some guys loudly complaining about how Young is being paid millions to stink (or something to that effect) and his mom is yelling at them, "It's an ANNUITY! It's an ANNUITY!"

Well worth watching if you haven't yet.

[Rupert Patrick]

The L.A. Coliseum seated more than 90,000 people, so even a crowd of 70K left a lot of empty seats. The playoff game Troup refers to hosted 90,380 but even in that championship season, the Raiders had four home games with less than 45,000 attending-- including a game against the Cardinals with 32,000. Seeing the Coliseum half-empty for Raiders fans wasn't that unusual during their years there.

I was at the Seahawks Raiders game at the Coliseum in 1983, and there were 50K people there and it looked like there were half that number because that place was so huge and the end zone area were always pretty much empty. I would guess a quarter of the attendees to any Raider game in LA came down from Oakland. The problem was that as an Olympic stadium they had the 8 lane running track going around it, and the football field was inside so it seemed that even with front row seats on the 50-yard line you were still 50-60 feet from the sidelines, and it wasn't a good place to watch a game.

[BD Sullivan]

Can't see the L.A. Express mentioned without thinking of the story Steve Young told on the ESPN 30 for 30 documentary, "Who Killed the USFL." Young was struggling in a game, his mother in the stands near some guys loudly complaining about how Young is being paid millions to stink (or something to that effect) and his mom is yelling at them, "It's an ANNUITY! It's an ANNUITY!"

Well worth watching if you haven't yet.

If only to see Trump get irritated over the questions about how he was a major factor in killing the league--by pushing to move to the Fall.

The Express also had the indignity of having to give up home field advantage for the 1984 Western Conference title because the Coliseum needed to be prepped for the Olympics--which were three weeks away.

In their final year, they played one home game at tiny Pierce College, whose football field didn't even have a name. Here's an article on that nadir for the franchise:

http://articles.lati...-crowe-20100614

[Jay Z]

I was at the Seahawks Raiders game at the Coliseum in 1983, and there were 50K people there and it looked like there were half that number because that place was so huge and the end zone area were always pretty much empty. I would guess a quarter of the attendees to any Raider game in LA came down from Oakland. The problem was that as an Olympic stadium they had the 8 lane running track going around it, and the football field was inside so it seemed that even with front row seats on the 50-yard line you were still 50-60 feet from the sidelines, and it wasn't a good place to watch a game.

I had wondered how many Oakland fans stayed with the team, obviously some. Others likely said good riddance. So there would be some fans in Oakland, and maybe a few still in LA, where 1983 would be a fond memory, but probably a lot less than other teams.

Biggest orphan champion was probably the Cleveland Rams. The Rams never drew that well at Cleveland Stadium or League Park, then the Browns drew 60K in the very first game of their league, against the Miami Seahawks!

[BD Sullivan]

I had wondered how many Oakland fans stayed with the team, obviously some. Others likely said good riddance. So there would be some fans in Oakland, and maybe a few still in LA, where 1983 would be a fond memory, but probably a lot less than other teams.

Biggest orphan champion was probably the Cleveland Rams. The Rams never drew that well at Cleveland Stadium or League Park, then the Browns drew 60K in the very first game of their league, against the Miami Seahawks!

Of course, the Rams' combined record during their first seven seasons (they suspended operations in 1943) was 25-49, hardly inspiring in an era when pro football was low man on the totem pole. Plus, the latter half of their tenure had World War II to deal with.

[classic3283]

When the Raiders moved to L.A. I wonder how many people actually considered it a permanent move. It's hard to gain a fan base when your always threatening to move, and/or there is legal litigation that could force a move.

The Raiders actually announced they would be moving to L.A. in 1980; they even moved some team operations to L.A. Then the NFL put the brakes on that. When they finally did play games in L.A. the team was rumored as being interested in moving to New York City after the Jets left Shea Stadium. On top of that the city of Oakland was still trying to win the team back in the courts by claiming eminent domain.

After the dust started to settle in the courts, the Raiders once again were rumored to relocate. Either back to Oakland or Sacramento. Plus there were rumors of relocating to another city within the L.A. metro area. After a few failed stadium proposals, relocation rumors once again started swirling in 1994. Over half a dozen cities were interested, including Hartford and Orlando.

The L.A. Coliseum also sustained damage in the 1994 Northridge earthquake. The city of Oakland of course was more than willing to offer the use of their stadium. The Raiders were able to play in the Coliseum in 1994, but as you know they left for Oakland the next season.

Side Note: When the Rams announced they were moving to Anaheim, a city official in L.A. sent letters to the NFL's other 27 teams about moving to L.A. The city official must not have known much about football. I'm sure places like Green Bay just tossed it in the trash right away.

It seemed some newspaper writers were convinced that the Buccaneers would be interested in moving to L.A., because of the whole John McKay connection. I suppose anything would have been possible, but I think logic should have showed that a fairly new franchise with a new stadium wasn't going to leave town.

[Todd Pence]

Another famous orphaned championship was the Dallas Texans' 1962 AFL title, the championship game of which turned out to be the last game the franchise played as the Texans.

[anome8]

I think there are a couple of factors that make the Raiders an unusual team in this regard. The nature of Raider fandom is unusually rabid (and I choose that word advisedly). Possibly more than fans of any other team, Raider fans are contemptuous of other teams, all other teams, not just their top rivals. It's almost something of a blood oath, for good or ill, so the level of loyalty is unusually high for that reason. When the team moved to Los Angeles, there was some disaffection in Oakland, but those who had fallen in love with the team for their owner and players and their style of play, rather than simple geography, stayed loyal.

In about 1985 or so, after the move and while the team was still performing at a high level, NBC ran a graphic during a game suggesting that the Raiders might be the "new" America's Team. The idea that the "evil empire" of the Raiders would be embraced as the new national football totem, replacing the Cowboys, probably disgusted Raiders fans even more than it did Cowboys fans, but there is some truth to the idea. The Raiders travel very well, as the saying goes. There is a not a broadcast of a Raiders road game that doesn't include multiple shots of clusters of Raiders fans who are clearly not intimidated by being in the minority. I myself attended a game in Seattle where a parade of more than 100 Raider fans marched toward the stadium behind a large silver and black banner chanting "Seahawks suck!" and were completely unchallenged by the Seahawk partisans.

This far along, the fact that the team was in Los Angeles is just a quirky detail. The great players and coaches of those days are still very much embraced by the fans of the team, in Oakland and elsewhere, excepting Marcus Allen, of course. But Howie Long, Todd Christensen, Greg Townsend, Bo Jackson, and the other greats of the era are just as revered as their predecessors and no one ever points out that they were "Los Angeles" Raiders and not Oakland Raiders, and the vision of Jack Squirek, ball held high, has visceral appeal to fans in Oakland as much as it does to fans in LA or elsewhere. It doesn't feel like an orphaned championship at all.

[BD Sullivan]

Another famous orphaned championship was the Dallas Texans' 1962 AFL title, the championship game of which turned out to be the last game the franchise played as the Texans.

Similar to the Cleveland Rams, who won the 1945 NFL title, then bolted for Los Angeles.

[Marble_Eye]

I live in the LA area, in Anaheim (which is only about 25 miles from downtown LA) and while I dont think many here care too much about the history of any of their teams (except possibly the LA Lakers, who have done a lot in the last 40 years that most people here were all around for and can remember) I do think that there is a huge Raider fan base here. I see Raider decals and bumper stickers and license plate frames all over this city, despite the fact they have been back in Oakland for almost 20 years, and despite the fact that they havent done a whole lot in that period.

I hear talk about the Raiders too, and think they have a huge following here, especially among the enormous Hispanic population that is in this region. The history may not be cared about, but the Raider look and image is highly prized here and the team would do well if moved to one of the two Stadia currently in the planning stages here. (Only 1 of which will probably ever be built. Farmers Field downtown near the Forum (the favorite as it is AEG backed, and in the city itself), and or the Ed Roski led Stadium effort out in City of Industry, which is less than 50 miles from the city proper.

[BD Sullivan]

I hear talk about the Raiders too, and think they have a huge following here, especially among the enormous Hispanic population that is in this region.

Not that it ever entered into their minds, but it's ironic that the original name of the team was (briefly) the Senors.

[Jay Z]

I think there are a couple of factors that make the Raiders an unusual team in this regard. The nature of Raider fandom is unusually rabid (and I choose that word advisedly). Possibly more than fans of any other team, Raider fans are contemptuous of other teams, all other teams, not just their top rivals. It's almost something of a blood oath, for good or ill, so the level of loyalty is unusually high for that reason. When the team moved to Los Angeles, there was some disaffection in Oakland, but those who had fallen in love with the team for their owner and players and their style of play, rather than simple geography, stayed loyal.

In about 1985 or so, after the move and while the team was still performing at a high level, NBC ran a graphic during a game suggesting that the Raiders might be the "new" America's Team. The idea that the "evil empire" of the Raiders would be embraced as the new national football totem, replacing the Cowboys, probably disgusted Raiders fans even more than it did Cowboys fans, but there is some truth to the idea. The Raiders travel very well, as the saying goes. There is a not a broadcast of a Raiders road game that doesn't include multiple shots of clusters of Raiders fans who are clearly not intimidated by being in the minority. I myself attended a game in Seattle where a parade of more than 100 Raider fans marched toward the stadium behind a large silver and black banner chanting "Seahawks suck!" and were completely unchallenged by the Seahawk partisans.

This far along, the fact that the team was in Los Angeles is just a quirky detail. The great players and coaches of those days are still very much embraced by the fans of the team, in Oakland and elsewhere, excepting Marcus Allen, of course. But Howie Long, Todd Christensen, Greg Townsend, Bo Jackson, and the other greats of the era are just as revered as their predecessors and no one ever points out that they were "Los Angeles" Raiders and not Oakland Raiders, and the vision of Jack Squirek, ball held high, has visceral appeal to fans in Oakland as much as it does to fans in LA or elsewhere. It doesn't feel like an orphaned championship at all.

Thanks for the perspective. Oakland and LA are about the same distance apart as Cleveland and Baltimore, but particulars matter, of course.

Maybe Marcus Allen is an orphan. Grew up in San Diego, played at USC, played 11 years with the Raiders but all in LA. Then the later feud with the team too. I can think of only a few running backs that played 11 years with the same team (Payton, Banaszak, Matte, Canadeo), and a couple that played 5 years each with 2 different teams (Ottis Anderson and John Riggins.) Allen's got to be the only one to do both.

Of course, both the Rams and Raiders left LA after the 1994 season. Some may remember that they both finished the season with home games, on Christmas Eve of all days. The 4-12 Rams lost 24-21 to the 3-13 Redskins, led by Heath Shuler. The 9-7 Raiders were knocked out of the playoffs by a 19-9 score by their division rivals, the 9-7 Chiefs. The Chiefs ended the game with a drive that consumed the last 6:21 on the clock, featuring 10 straight running plays, 9 by Marcus Allen. What a way to go!

[Teo]

Maybe Marcus Allen is an orphan. Grew up in San Diego, played at USC, played 11 years with the Raiders but all in LA. Then the later feud with the team too. I can think of only a few running backs that played 11 years with the same team (Payton, Banaszak, Matte, Canadeo), and a couple that played 5 years each with 2 different teams (Ottis Anderson and John Riggins.) Allen's got to be the only one to do both.

Franco Harris, Rocky Bleier, Robert Newhouse, Tony Dorsett, Emmitt Smith, Dexter Bussey and Kevin Faulk played at least 11 seasons with the same team.

[conace21]

Franco Harris, Rocky Bleier, Robert Newhouse, Tony Dorsett, Emmitt Smith, Dexter Bussey and Kevin Faulk played at least 11 seasons with the same team.

Mike Alstott played 11 years for Tampa Bay and Warrick Dunn played 6 years for Tampa and 5 for Atlanta.

But I don't know anyone could match Allen. How many RB's even play 16 years? I thought of Tony Richardson, but after 11 years in KC, he played three years for Min, and two for NYJ.
Earnest Byner probably comes closest, if you consider Cleveland/Baltimore to be one franchise (I know officially they are separate, and in the NFL's records, Byner played for three teams.) Byner played nine years for Cle/Balt and five years in Washington.

[Marble_Eye]

Mike Alstott played 11 years for Tampa Bay and Warrick Dunn played 6 years for Tampa and 5 for Atlanta.

But I don't know anyone could match Allen. How many RB's even play 16 years? I thought of Tony Richardson, but after 11 years in KC, he played three years for Min, and two for NYJ.
Earnest Byner probably comes closest, if you consider Cleveland/Baltimore to be one franchise (I know officially they are separate, and in the NFL's records, Byner played for three teams.) Byner played nine years for Cle/Balt and five years in Washington.

I went to Pro Football Reference.com to confirm my suspicion that Joe "The Jet" Perry played 16 years as an RB and he did. No one here will be surprised by that. But I noticed he kicked a FG & 6 XP for the 49ers in 1954 and that got me to wondering, was Joe Perry the first black player to score a placekick in an NFL or AAFC game?